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Author Topic: P51 vs BF109  (Read 7946 times)
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SA_475th_Chaney
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« on: October 22, 2010, 10:41:44 PM »

Ok I'm sure you all have seen this video. This is one of many tales of P51s out-turning 109s. I'm not sure how many accounts are true but this is very interesting. Of the many flight sims I have played, the 51 turned like a tank and almost always lost in a turn fight. We all know that the 51 was a high alt B/Z energy fighter but what is shown here, it could out-turn as well as out-climb. But also during these accounts between 51s and 109s, there were fewer skilled German pilots during early to late 1944 as most were utilized on the Russian front or Africa. Please correct me if I'm wrong. With that being said, many factors could have come into play with this particular incident. The German pilot may have not acquired the defensive and aggressive maneuvers of his predecessors so who really knows. But then again, real life pilots today have flown these war-birds and swear that the 51 could never produce the sharp turning ratio that the 109 could. Enjoy this video. S!  Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE

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Kwiatek
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2010, 04:11:18 AM »

Nice known fight between Bud Anderson and german pilot.

I dont know which was directly date of these fight but it looks that P-51 B ( best turning mustangs) met 109 G-6 ( worst turning 109).  All depends also of altitutde. If it would be at high alts then difference between P-51 and 109 in turn and power ratio was small so i think P-51 had more chance to stay with 109 turn. At such high alts  109 climb rate was not better then P-51. When you looked at the video when Bud with his mate tried to turn with single 109 they coudln't stay with 109 sharp turns.  It show superb dogfight ability of 109 over P-51 when 109 pilot was skilled.

I think that German pilot in 109 made one serios mistake -  when he was behind 2 P-51 and 1 P-51 start to dive he follow when Bud stay higher - it was mistake which cost German pilot life. He shoudn't dive with Bud mate but rather start to climb to get Bud P-51.

But as i said it all depends of type of planes, altitude, initialy energy state,  skill of pilot etc.
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SA_475th_Chaney
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2010, 04:19:44 AM »

Nice known fight between Bud Anderson and german pilot.

I dont know which was directly date of these fight but it looks that P-51 B ( best turning mustangs) met 109 G-6 ( worst turning 109).  All depends also of altitutde. If it would be at high alts then difference between P-51 and 109 in turn and power ratio was small so i think P-51 had more chance to stay with 109 turn. At such high alts  109 climb rate was not better then P-51. When you looked at the video when Bud with his mate tried to turn with single 109 they coudln't stay with 109 sharp turns.  It show superb dogfight ability of 109 over P-51 when 109 pilot was skilled.

I think that German pilot in 109 made one serios mistake -  when he was behind 2 P-51 and 1 P-51 start to dive he follow when Bud stay higher - it was mistake which cost German pilot life. He shoudn't dive with Bud mate but rather start to climb to get Bud P-51.

But as i said it all depends of type of planes, altitude, initialy energy state,  skill of pilot etc.

Nicely said and thanks for the response. I'm sure this post will generate many theories and ideas and my aim is to do exactly that. I discovered this one as well. If there are videos of German accounts, please share. This is not one sided. Translation may be necessary. Thanks. This is the first part. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8FNBViRdfk
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 04:22:18 AM by SA_475th_Chaney » Logged
Angel
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2010, 05:32:07 AM »

In IL-2 Compare, on the main, the BF109 out turns the P-51. The FW190 A8 and A9 are very similar to the P-51 30NA. The P-51 turns better compared to the P-47 and also better than the P-38.


I believe at the later stages of the war, the Luftwaffe pilots were no where near the quality that were seen at the outbreak of war. Compared to the USA, which probably produced better pilots towards the end due to training and lessons learnt.

I remember seeing an account of a P-51 vs BF109, the P-51 went into a turn and they went round in circles for nearly 30 mins. Each turn the P-51 slightly gained on the BF109, so this would indicate that the P-51 could turn sharper. 

Some of the Luftwaffe pilots believed that the best varient for pure dogfighting was the F4. The later G models were hampered with other roles such as bomber interception which increased their weight due to the large amound of Allied bombing that occured in 43-44.
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Kwiatek
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2010, 09:42:30 AM »

SA_475th_Chaney dont belive everything what you saw in Dogfight video series. Really.
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AFJ_Erif
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WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 03:52:13 PM »

It is true that the 51 can turn very well at high speed.  It is also true that the 51 loses speed quite fast in a turn so that means that you have to get the advantage pretty fast if you plan on turning instead of BnZing.  In general, turning is not a good idea in a 51 (as far as il-2 1946 is concerned).



~S~
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Angel
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 09:12:02 PM »

You can turn with an FW190.


QUE COMBAT FLAPS and burn baby burn...
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Angel
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 01:24:47 AM »

The B model is a lot more stable in turns I have found.
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beepee
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 01:55:55 AM »

Quote
SA_475th_Chaney dont belive everything what you saw in Dogfight video series. Really.

Very true. There is an older(1980s?), and IMO better series called "Hunters In The Sky".

It covers all theatres of World War 2, and has interviews with many of the Aces we revere, as they were still alive and kicking.

Like Dogfights, it  is not the be all and end all of ACM discussion, or technical matters regarding Aircraft(books are the main resources I use for that), but worth checking.

As far as the P51 vs 109 goes, what model 109 are we talking about? Like all aircraft each variant will have it's own characteristics.

I primarily fly the 109, and although I am still fairly noobish,I have managed to get in and out of some(see a handfull) fights alive.

When I have come across the P51, I have found that I struggle in my 109, this is usually due to the fact that there seems always to be a wingman. And they always seem to have alt advantage.
I guess I need to start doing the same. Wink
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 06:29:45 AM by -MF-beepee » Logged

OAC_Crow
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2010, 11:53:22 AM »

Turning a WWII fighter in real life vs. pulling on your joystick at home are two entirely different things. In real life, the strength, stamina, and resistance to G-LOC of each individual pilot were important factors in who could outturn whom.

The fact is the aircraft mattered much less than pilot skill and strength in real life. In the game we all pull on the stick with the same ability (~45lbs of force if I remember Oleg right), so the stories about P-51s and P-47s outturning 109s are probably true, but not applicable to our simulation.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 12:01:50 PM by OAC_Crow » Logged


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_RAAF_Gepp
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2010, 06:56:58 PM »

Very true. There is an older(1980s?), and IMO better series called "Hunters In The Sky".

Thats a "must have" dvd doco for any ww2 air-war enthusiast  i still watch it alot.
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CRO_Dino
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2010, 06:34:46 AM »

Turning a WWII fighter in real life vs. pulling on your joystick at home are two entirely different things. In real life, the strength, stamina, and resistance to G-LOC of each individual pilot were important factors in who could outturn whom.

The fact is the aircraft mattered much less than pilot skill and strength in real life. In the game we all pull on the stick with the same ability (~45lbs of force if I remember Oleg right), so the stories about P-51s and P-47s outturning 109s are probably true, but not applicable to our simulation.

I vote this as the most correct and reasonable answer in this topic  Grin
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Angel
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 01:47:44 AM »

I try and be as smooth as possible to stop the P-51 from snapping. Also when I bought rudder pedals, it really helped keep the plane balanced so as to stop the snap from occurring.

If you turn it hard, you can feel a buffet just above the stall, and as long as you recognise this and don't push any harder then you will not stall and spin. Easier said than done, when you need to push the nose up to get a snap shot off...

I have found the P-51 so great in the vertical plane. So fast, you get up to contrail height against the top scoring aces on the server that fly the FW190 and they're in real trouble.

Snap shots are difficult as you don't have the hitting power especially in the P-51B, so a sustained "In the Saddle" shots in the same plane as the defender, are much more effective if you can maneuver there.
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Bradc00
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 11:52:24 AM »

Cool video  Evil
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Moccasin
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2010, 04:41:25 AM »

For me if it's a head to head scenario where I can work against a single bandit then it's not usually too much trouble. Although, like said above it depends on the pilot(s) that are handling the aircraft.

Most BF-109 guys like to pull hard and try to turn inside your radius for an early shot giving up most of their energy if not all of it. I keep the P-51 above 300mph...while my turn radius is bigger, once the bandit pulls a smaller radius and goes pure pursuit, I start climbing in the turn bleeding him off more in the vertical. The problem is, that the 109 can stand on its ass and spray cannon rounds at you before he falls off on a wing or is forced to disengage. I try to make sure I have just enough energy to keep him from getting enough lead when dragging him in a climbing turn...once he had commited to pulling pure pursuit. If he's pure he can't shoot me, only when he goes lead...so it's good cueing to watch the nose position. Once he falls off or disengages it's just a matter of attacking him from above closing off the escape window.

In simple 2 circle fighting, like also said above, keep it around or above 250 with combat flaps and you can eventually drive to a firing solution.

But there are so many variables. What are the specific models, what is the gross weight and altitude of each fighter at the beginning of the hostilities? etc etc etc. Just a minor advantage in one envelope or another could spell the difference between getting blown out of the air, or bringing down your target.

Most of my victories in the P-51 have been from fighting in the vertical where my opponent gave up too much energy for angles, and lost the ability to fight uphill. They blow their wad early Wink
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