Suggestion or question on stats...

[Rexavian]

Hi guys (including THATguy, who shot me down and I shot down the other day!)

I understand where ixus is coming from when he writes that the "Kill:Death ratio is the statistic that really
matters"; but I also sympathize with thatguy's statement: "In the end, the most important measure of a
person's worth is not based on their stats. It's who do you want clearing your six."

One problem with ixus's suggestion is that it might reward 'ungentlemanly' behaviour - far more than does the
present system. By this I mean that a player trying to become the 'top' fighter pilot may be more reluctant to
take on a GOOD fighter one-on-one, and may have a stronger urge to RUN AWAY following a sneaky kill rather
than stick around the fray to help his mates who are still in mortal danger. In the real war, fighter pilots acted
partly in fear of such cowardice being reported and punished; but here, who's going to complain, and to whom?

Regards

Rexavian

[CIA_Luth]

In the end, the most important measure of a person's worth is not based on their stats.  It's who do you want clearing your six 

is FB=Viks= still flying?

[iLOVEwindmills]

Hi guys (including THATguy, who shot me down and I shot down the other day!)

I understand where ixus is coming from when he writes that the "Kill:Death ratio is the statistic that really
matters"; but I also sympathize with thatguy's statement: "In the end, the most important measure of a
person's worth is not based on their stats. It's who do you want clearing your six."

One problem with ixus's suggestion is that it might reward 'ungentlemanly' behaviour - far more than does the
present system. By this I mean that a player trying to become the 'top' fighter pilot may be more reluctant to
take on a GOOD fighter one-on-one, and may have a stronger urge to RUN AWAY following a sneaky kill rather
than stick around the fray to help his mates who are still in mortal danger. In the real war, fighter pilots acted
partly in fear of such cowardice being reported and punished; but here, who's going to complain, and to whom?

Regards

Rexavian

This pretty much.

KDR overall is a relatively poor way to measure skill, in any game. It is easy to rack up a very high KDRs if you consciously fly to stay alive, and while this might sound like it is great for 'realistic' behaviour, it most often leads to the opposite. Avoiding any kind of dogfight, not helping friendlies that are in trouble, exclusively engaging when you are in a better position, disregarding objectives because defending them would put you at a disadvantage, and expliticitly staying away from any kind of ground targets (flak) let alone actually flying ground attack yourself.

While cowardice and ignoring orders would obviously happen in real life, you'd have some serious explaining to do when you get back to base. It would at the very least be your last day in the airforce, or your last day alive depending on the nation you're flying for.

What works in reality, frequently does not work out the same ingame.

I still believe the only real valuable addition would be the landed kills divided by time flow.

[Rexavian]

I still believe the only real valuable addition would be the landed kills divided by time flow.

Great. So, dear admins, how about we ADD the statistic "landed kills divided by time flow"?

One other thing, how about we make Return Alive Kills be calculated from fighter sorties ONLY,
rather than from ALL sorties, as is currently the case? (See my Note below.)

Rexavian

Note: Earlier I wrote (and this is the third time I'm mentioning it, with no response from anyone):

"On each of the three WOP server stats pages, there is a Top Fighter Pilots panel which ranks players
according to Return Alive Kills (the last column). However, each RAK score is calculated from ALL
sorties flown, not just FIGHTER sorties, whereas each number under Sorties and Confirmed Kills (in
the same panel) is calculated using only FIGHTER sorties (not ALL sorties). This not only presents
an anomaly but implies that a player could (in theory) fly nothing but bombers and end up being
listed as a server's 'Top' fighter pilot!"

[Centermass]

For me the major problem with the stats is that if you fly the most hours you will rack up enough return alive kills to be on the top fighter pilot list even though most rarely get back to base alive. For cannon fighters it is even easier.

The top fighter pilots should have around 75% live to fight again ratio. No doubt, THATGUY is the best fighter pilot on the server, getting 3 and 4 kills a lot of sorties. I would like to see him do a solid month with .50s only.

Is there a place to read how the stats work? From what I can tell it is Java based.

[RAF238thGunRunner]

Note: Earlier I wrote (and this is the third time I'm mentioning it, with no response from anyone):

If you read in one of my previous threads there are only three people doing all the work on the server.  Of these three I am the only one that is active [the others have work commitments] at present and I have nothing to do with the stats.  I am very sorry.

[WindWpn]

If you read in one of my previous threads there are only three people doing all the work on the server.  Of these three I am the only one that is active [the others have work commitments] at present and I have nothing to do with the stats.  I am very sorry.

Sounds like it may be time for recruiting some new help with server admin?!  I am sure there are plenty of folks here in the community would would be interested in joining the team to help improve the WoP experience.

On another note which has been discussed a few times in the thread, originated by TG, a key aspect to survival and building "quam" to make the leaderboard is wingman/flight coordination.  Most of the guys on the boards always fly coordinated and I find that I do much better on a given night when coordinated.  Last night for example, I had three kills and nearly 100 ground targets destroyed without being shot down.  I had a few close calls, but my tail was cleared by my coordinated backup.  I was on with Ski and Pepper and the coordination was superb. 

Fly with TG, Luth, Ski, Pep, your own squad mates, etc... on TS comms and likely you will do much better. 

[Anvilfolk]

One problem with ixus's suggestion is that it might reward 'ungentlemanly' behaviour - far more than does the
present system. By this I mean that a player trying to become the 'top' fighter pilot may be more reluctant to
take on a GOOD fighter one-on-one, and may have a stronger urge to RUN AWAY following a sneaky kill rather
than stick around the fray to help his mates who are still in mortal danger. In the real war, fighter pilots acted
partly in fear of such cowardice being reported and punished; but here, who's going to complain, and to whom?

KDR overall is a relatively poor way to measure skill, in any game. It is easy to rack up a very high KDRs if you consciously fly to stay alive, and while this might sound like it is great for 'realistic' behaviour, it most often leads to the opposite. Avoiding any kind of dogfight, not helping friendlies that are in trouble, exclusively engaging when you are in a better position, disregarding objectives because defending them would put you at a disadvantage, and expliticitly staying away from any kind of ground targets (flak) let alone actually flying ground attack yourself.

I do not see anything particularly wrong with this, but I don't know the Spits vs 109's crowd that well. A mistake would cost you your life. Flying safe and only engaging when in advantage looks like perfectly sound tactical advice. I'm not totally convinced that every pilot would help out every other pilot by joining a dogfight willy-nilly. Same squadron, sure, but other squadrons? I honestly don't know. Perhaps it came down to personal characteristics. I would risk my K/D ratio (it's already 0 anyway!!!) for some fellows I've met on TS, as long as it wasn't certain death. Others perhaps wouldn't.

Your suggestion is Landed kills divided by time flown. I've suggested K/D ratio divided by time flown. It's the same, but averages scores by time flown and encourages more careful behaviour. Perhaps the server's crowd is wrong for this, I can't judge. It's just a suggestion.

Sounds like it may be time for recruiting some new help with server admin?!  I am sure there are plenty of folks here in the community would would be interested in joining the team to help improve the WoP experience.

I would gladly help with this kind of stuff, though I understand working directly with the WoP database is risky. Perhaps one could get a copy of a month's stats and work with that locally?

Fly with TG, Luth, Ski, Pep, your own squad mates, etc... on TS comms and likely you will do much better. 

You underestimate my uselessness as a pilot!

[CIA_Luth]

just a thought before i head off to work....


this is a mission oriented server,  where the objectives for a pilot (as spelled out in each mission brief) are to destroy the enemy ground targets.  shouldnt the stats of the bomber or ground attack pilots, who risk the most every mission, be considered of greater importance than who is the top fighter pilot? 

OTOH,  ive seen some very good points and suggestions made by other posters. 

oops,  just looked at my watch,  gotta go to work. 

[Kibbey]

Luth,
  I think we attack pilots (you are one of 'em) are well rewarded by the scoring system as it is.  No fighter-only pilot will ever earn the kind of scores the ground pounders do.  We are the ones who dominate the overall scoreboard.   I assumed that's why the Fighter leader board exists, to try and show the relative skills of those folks who are only interested in air-to-air combat. 

-CH3

[CIA_Luth]

yeah,  i know CH.  i had a much longer idea i wanted to express, but im pressed for time.

[Rexavian]

If you read in one of my previous threads there are only three people doing all the work on the server.  Of these three I am the only one that is active [the others have work commitments] at present and I have nothing to do with the stats.  I am very sorry.

Hi GunRunner

Thanks for your reply; I fully appreciate what you are saying. Maybe one day, when I feel less pressure from real life (e.g. my own work commitments), I'll put my hand up to get involved and help resolve some of these issues. Until then, I suppose there's no point whinging, whining and bleating about "why doesn't someone [ELSE] do something about this!?". At the same time, I have faith that the discussions going on here right now are in fact contributing towards a worthwhile set of fixes and modifications which will actually be implemented once the right person feels inspired enough to step forward to contribute their valuable time and the organizational and technical work required. I would like to thank that person beforehand.

In the meantime, I cannot resist returning to my little hobby horse and again pointing out (respectfully, and just for the record) that the Return Alive Kills score is at present calculated from ALL sorties (not just FIGHTER sorties, as it should be).

Cheers

Rexavian

[Pepper]

Rexavian,

Thanks, (along with everyone) greatly for the understanding.
To the posters here, we do hear you.
We think there have been many good points made, many with which we do agree.

We also know that Stats are a relevant part of the game to many folks.
This is why Willie has done what you see with the the creation of FBDJ in the first place.
He's additionally shared this program with all that have asked for it, along with many, many more hours (years, really) of helping folks getting it set up and working with it. He's asked nothing in return from anyone, ever.

Gunny's given you all an honest, genuine overview of where we're at presently.
There's no smoke and mirrors about any of it: truly, there just aren't the hours in the day to manage all that needs to be done.   
When time permits, we do intend to address these issues as well as many others.

In the interim, personally, I am grateful to have what we have and for the years of enjoyment it's brought to so many of us from, well, across just about the entire planet.

We'll get to this, folks. We just can't give you a timeframe right now.

[=K39=Cocoa]

Hello Gents,

First of all I would like to adhere to this one:

Thanks for your reply; I fully appreciate what you are saying. Maybe one day, when I feel less pressure from real life (e.g. my own work commitments), I'll put my hand up to get involved and help resolve some of these issues. Until then, I suppose there's no point whinging, whining and bleating about "why doesn't someone [ELSE] do something about this!?". At the same time, I have faith that the discussions going on here right now are in fact contributing towards a worthwhile set of fixes and modifications which will actually be implemented once the right person feels inspired enough to step forward to contribute their valuable time and the organizational and technical work required. I would like to thank that person beforehand.

And of course many thanks for keeping WoP up, running and together, not even talking about the space for discussion!

It is a pleasure!

Kind regards

Cocoa