Suggestion or question on stats...

[=K39=Cocoa]

Hello Gents,

Maybe I'm not the most suitable guy to raise this issue as I'm not too active these days...just having my hands sweating looking at the stats of my squaddies with my virtual cockpit far away from me, but there is one thing that made me wonder as I'm looking at the stats.

I dont really know what is the official WoP position on that - though I do remember to see some posts and discussions on that - but is it something worthy to consider to get a stat system that is based on the " alive " condition of pilots? If supposedly stats are somehow intended to put a healthy measure or induce sportsmanlike competition amongst virtual pilots, I think a system in which " alive " guys would be favored could be much more realistic.

The actual system - reset every month - does not really score vpilots on their realistically simulated virtual combat behaviour ( sounds weird) but on the time they spend on the server. Someone who would fly a considerable amount of time with more or less good scoring would be a high ranking fighter or bomber pilot, though the skills from the simulation point of view would be limited as he "dies" every second mission.

On the other hand someone who flies carefully executed sorties with good coordination, lets say plays like in a style much closer to the "real thing" is not really promoted. Don't get me wrong I'm not personally interested in gaining better rankings, nor I think that those "tactical" guys are, but a stat system in which your stats would be reset once you "die" or captured lets say, would promote or impulse a much more stylish and tactical approach to virtual air combat, and therefore could make the WoP experience better (question is: is there a need for that, maybe good enough like this)

I hope these few thoughts could start some discussion about this thread, I have to say that I was totally amazed by the results of a good friend of mine here with a 28:1 kill to death ratio. Again, I'm not talking about the pure numbers, I talk about the experience of flightsimming you get with this kind of tactics, good and disciplined radio chatter, a tactical approach, and not least a total respect for server rules and sportsmanlike fair play, that makes the fun much more fun. And when you land after a sortie like that you really have your hands shaking even if you have not shot a single virtual bullet just maintained combat spread with your wingleader.

I am really intereseted in the Admins and Members point of view on this.

My best wishes.

Cocoa

[Gromit]

personally I would do away with stats completely, it drives very poor behaviour, from people only flying the best aircraft they can get on every map to disconnecting and kill stealing!

[=K39=Cocoa]

Hm...yeah Gromit thats a good point. Still I think there is a bigger number of guys that plays fair, and the disco chaps would go MIA therefore there would be no joy in discoing for them.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Things happen in the game that do not happen in real life, you die quite regularly due to people spawning in the same place as you, collisions on the airfield that wouldn't really occur in real life, having your game minimize because of a pop up, being called away mid flight to get the door or the phone or whatever.

And just to give an example of randomness, I was flying a Hurricane IIc doing ground attack, get attacked by a random Stuka that overshoots without hitting me, and the rear gunner shoots me between the eyes with his first round the second he pulls in front of me smack in the middle of my gunsight. Stupid events that have nothing to do with pilot skill and are essentially unpreventable. It is really, really hard to not die to silly stuff like this every once in a while because it's a game.

Complete loss of stats on dead leads to loss of their importance. Because the leaderboards will probably consist only of a few lucky people, and those that don't attack unless they got 5000 meters altitude advantage and never dogfight.

Complete loss of stats will also incline more people to just disconnect as soon as they are about to die, that already happens and will only increase.

Currenty I do believe as far as a stat system goes, the one used by WoP is a pretty good one. There is large incentive to stay alive due to kills only getting credited on a safe return, and the monthly reset prevents the stats from getting stale and meaningless after a few months (check the Kampfverband 13 stats to see what I mean by that).

The only modification I would propose at the moment is an additional leaderboard containing confirmed kill/returned kill divided by the amount of hours flown. Sortie count used to be a rough indication of pilot efficiency, but with RRR every single 'sortie' for the server might be many more just with RRR in between. This would allow capable pilots who don't have a ton of free time to still top a leaderboard. Obviously a minimum flight time of a few hours would be required to qualify, so that a pilot with 1 kill in a single 10 minute sortie wouldn't top these boards.

[Pepper]

Hi Cocoa,

First, glad to hear from you and that you're doing well.
And yes, we miss you!

Before I go into it, bear in mind this is strictly my opinion and not reflective of anything else.

Stats.....ah stats.
Maybe start with some history about them:
Coming from the original game days, there weren't any so-to-speak.
The only thing there was, was if you got a kill (air to air), the game awarded you 100 points for a fighter; 200 for a twin engine bomber; and 400 for a four engine bomber. I'm embarassed to say, I don't recall what ground pounders got (values for each target), but in the very original game, I remember a successful sortie and landing did net a pretty healthy total (although a fixed value per target), however, it was certainly more than fighters generally got for only air to air kills. But that was all there was.
Additionally, regardless of what you may or may not have gotten per mission, as soon as you logged off, it all went back to zero.

Another significant difference was, there were no comms in those days. T/S hadn't come along yet either (along with TIR and similar devices.) The only way folks talked to each other in game was through Chat, while usually panning their view either with only the hat switch or with the mouse. While more primative in many ways, there was certainly a very different flying mindset: if you were in a D/F with someone, you were generally left alone to fight it out one-on-one. Things like kill stealing, base raping, etc., existed but were much less common. (Imagine that!!) But then again, mission-oriented servers didn't really exist either until a little later on. All of this added up to a very different flying style and frankly, it was much more chivalrous in my opinion with folks typically saluting each other all the time after a good fight.
 
Then came the original FBD mostly developed by TDG Sammie and others of that same squadron. It was an amazing step since for the first time, it gave so many different optional controls for each element of the game. It really served to change it entirely and with this change, similar to what we see now, each of the different servers offered different versions of it. Once this started, everyone wanted more and every server was in a rush to get them installed. Along with this, each of the different servers also offered various degrees of difficulty settings more than had been previously available. But once the game was headed in this direction, there was seemingly no going back.

Eventually, as the game continued to evolve, the original FBD was limited in many respects so a second type was developed (by the ROSS guys as I recall) called Server Commander. It worked in a very similar way, but still had enough differences that a choice needed to be made by each server. Each controller also saw a difference in flying styles develop because of the differences between them.  
Both were used as an attraction for each individual server, depending whichever the particular controller was favored by each individual server-owner and pilot. But mostly, both types also opened up the game for all sorts of other possibilites allowing for controls and record-keeping for several different types of flying that simply didn't exist before. As such, leagues, competitions, tournaments, Mega Missions, Exhibition flying, On Line wars, enhanced Co-Ops, Stunt piloting, and even just air racing all developed and/or greatly improved and grow as a result. You name it, it was probably out there. But in the end, regardless of the program used, they soon reached their limitations and still, folks wanted more.  

Then came our own RAF238th WildWille's FBDJ program which frankly, took it all to incredible new heights of capability. Things REALLY started to happen at that point as it allowed multiple new elements of controls and reporting tools than ever before. As I recall, Server Commander was still out there and used by some (still may be for all I know), but I believe development of it didn't continue past a certain point that I know of, thus rendering it stuck. Meanwhile, thanks to Willie's continued developments, I believe FBDJ became the more widely used controller for most all servers in one way or another community wide as it generally provided for more options and customizations. In evidence of its success, even today, I still see folks contacting Willie for help to get it set up, refined, or whatever.

So why the history?
Because with each change, the community has gone through significant changes in flying style.

From the original in-game-only stats, to FBD, there was a night and day difference. As different/more stats capability became available, the enhancement of them also determined more specifically how folks began to fly. More than ever before, pilots determined their own style to whatever category of the stats interested them the most: top fighter, bomber, etc. In my opinion, it also created more polarization in which side a pilot would fly, as well as interest in pursuing other elements that the game offered, like bombing.

This has all evolved to what we have now with the stats being available to suit whatever interest you may have, but make no mistakte: with each change has also come different mindsets of flying types and styles.

It seems to me that most folks today fly to the stats, as opposed to flying for the enjoyment of it first, with stats being an added bonus: two very different mindsets. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I'd be lying if I said there weren't days I didn't long for an uninterrupted one-on-one fight with someone, with others actually covering, as opposed to automatically jumping in. But that's just me. It's also given cause for the Rules to be as they are which have continually evolved over time to help keep pace with the different kinds of stats offered, resulting in changing flying styles and server objectives for fair and equal game play as much as possible.  

Is your suggestion of re-setting stats when someone dies appealing? FYI, over the years it has been tried more than once, but again, with each change of this sort, different styles and difficulties have also arisen. For what it's worth, I personally find it appealing in many respects, but if you think about it, that's what a reset does at the end of each month while allowing for a pilot not to have to start over because of things beyond his control: a significant sides imbalance on a particular map; a many-on-one situation; a bad connection that affects performance at a critical time; a collision of some sort, etc. etc. From the server side, resetting them once a month also allows us to maintain a good history of many different things which helps us in mapmaking, determining planesets, ground targets, and even the win/loss per side of every mission.

So after all is said and done, would game play really be better if individual stats were reset with every death? I personally think we would just see a different flying style come about once again, amongst fighters in particular. But this would also penalize a lot of others unnecessarily. Example: a ground pounder who would still probably die most missions, etc. My guess is, all this would just dissuade folks from flying the diversity of options the game has to offer and serve to polarize it even further.

These are just some of the reasons of how and why it's all evolved to what we have today.  
Hope this makes sense to explain how it all got to where it is?  

[=K39=Cocoa]

Hello Pepper,

On the first place, sure thing I miss the nice conversations on TS, and the sorties too....

On the second thanks for your long and detailed answer aswell as I was glad to hear Windmills opinion. It is much more that I expected. I guess my post got you in a good and redactive mood. My luck it is because on one hand you gave a nice historical resume of online Il-2 history which I appreciate a lot ( as I'm got seduced by this one quite late), and your reasoning absolutely makes sense to me.

I do recognize the problems with the stat chaser mentality, also the difficulty of the bombers, not even talking about the "record keeping" purpose of that stats, that as you pointed out, must be a great help for you Admin guys.

So, to cut it sort, thanks for the extensive answer and for your kind words as well. Hope to install TS here on a PC to hop in at least to chitchat a bit until I'm grounded.

Kind regards

Cocoa,

[Rexavian]

Hi guys

What Pepper says makes sense, and I agree that the system currently in place is basically fine. Although I sympathize with Cocoa and others, I see no need to change over to a system where stats get reset after every death. Perhaps the type of player info Cocoa would like to see could be ADDED to the stats pages without taking anything away that is already there?

Now, since we are on the topic of stats, I'd like to take this opportunity to suggest three other ways in which the stats could be improved - hopefully without too much work for the admins.

First, could the author(s) of the stats system please provide - on each WOP stats page - a link pointing to a document/post/website where the WOP stats pages are fully and clearly explained, in plain English?

I am here partly referring to how cumulative scores are arrived at. These are often hard to 'unravel', and this leads me to one particular anomaly which is the subject of my second suggestion.

On each of the three WOP server stats pages, there is a Top Fighter Pilots panel which ranks players according to Return Alive Kills (the last column). However, each RAK score is calculated from ALL sorties flown, not just FIGHTER sorties, whereas each number under Sorties and Confirmed Kills (in the same panel) is calculated using only FIGHTER sorties (not ALL sorties). This not only presents an anomaly but implies that a player could (in theory) fly nothing but bombers and end up being listed as a server's 'Top' fighter pilot!

So my second suggestion is that Return Alive Kills be calculated from fighter sorties ONLY. (Alternatively, leave RAKs alone and calculate Sorties and Confirmed Kills from all sorties rather than just fighter sorties.)

My third suggestion is purely cosmetic and not so important. To put it simply, I don't like the military terminology used in the Rank columns (e.g. Kaigun Shoi (2nd Lieutenant)" etc.). These designations are not only meaningless to me but seem rather silly. So I suggest a return to the plain numbering system used earlier (or no system at all).

Regards

Rexavian

[J9_Hammer]

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I'd be lying if I said there weren't days I didn't long for an uninterrupted one-on-one fight with someone,  

Grrr
S! 

[Schwarz Kreuz]

In relation to stats, which link into unofficial mods and official patches I've just read the readme for the upcoming official 4.12 patch and noted the following;

Quote:

This weeks update shows a little change in the scoring system. Patch 4.12 will introduce shared kills, which was historical practice in many air forces and has been requested by the community. It will no longer be the last pilot to put in a shot which gets all the credit.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=423560#post423560

Kind regards

Ritterkreuz

[RAF238thGunRunner]

This brings 4.11.1 patched to 4.12 to the same standard as UP3.0 RC4.  Having said that, in UP3.0 I have found that if you get a plane smoking and someone comes in and damages the controls and the victim crashes, the only person to get awarded with the kill is the second pilot.  For the kill to be shared, you both have to do significant enough damage for the eventlog to have recorded both events.

Regards

[WindWpn]

+1 for Cocoa's recommendation, though as others noted, perhaps the leader board could be the focus where "death" drops you off the board (NOTE stats are not reset, but rather the survival streak is the underlying stat which is the first basis complemented by the other stats such as "Returned Alive Kills").  Basically, the only pilots listed on the leader boards are those who have a said survival streak compounded with their associated score divided as currently by fighter, bomber, and total score breakdowns.  Only additional element would be that those scores would only be reflective of a continuous streak of survival/no capture.

As noted too, underneath it all, most all fly for stats (that is why there is such comprehensive stats tracked per pilot right?) and would love to make/maintain a spot on the "Leader Board."  Sure there are those who are on here who simply go up to shoot and be shot, but there are others (mainly the veterans) who fly to keep it as realistic as possible (myself being one and a main draw to the WoP servers), and survival is part of that equation.  Its great that the Fighter Leader Board is based upon "Return Alive Kills" as compared to simply number of total kills, which helps simulate "survival;" however, as Cocoa noted, the leader boards now are mainly based on amount of time spent on server for most leaders (thatguy being the exception    ).  

All in all, if "survival streak" could be the core underlying factor, complemented by aerial/ground pounding victories for the leader boards that would be awesome.  It would allow for more fluid leader boards, and promote "smart" flying/coordination/survival while allowing those who cannot spend 100 hrs+ per month to have a shot for some time at the top.

The monthly reset would still be valid to restart all from scratch each month, but from the leader boards' perspective, we would see much more interesting and dynamic change/stats.  

Plus, perhaps it would even promote "smarter" realistic flying as even though there is no death kick on the server, death would have a larger consequence.  Leaders would fly conservative/smart to try to maintain their leader position, while guys close to making the leader board would also fly more smartly to survive.  Of course the wildcard would be the guys who do not care about leader position, and that would even boost the challenge further for those that do.  

Also if someone dies per spawn death or something, with the extremely fluid dynamic nature of the leader boards, it would not be that hard to get back on top.  Fly a few more sorties, wack the guy who is on the board, and perhaps take his spot after a few sorties.

All in all, as a "full real" server, basing the Leader Board positions on "survival streak" would really boost realism and help promote "smart flying" for those (and I will say majority) interested.  Sure there may be "cheaters" who disco, or do other things to avoid death, but with the fluidity of the setup, they can not do it every time.  And after a few times, they would be identified and perhaps blackballed, especially if they are sitting on the leader board and actively "cheating."

Perhaps too, when I am flying allied with 10+ other guys, I will not be solo on TS comms (as is often the case now), if a few of those flying are interested in survival.

~S~
wind

[RAF238thGunRunner]

All very good suggestions.  Who is going to do all this work?

[WindWpn]

Does current stat program track "Survival Streak?"  If so, then if the "Leader Board" listing is configurable, it would calculated in this fashion/order of importance:

for fighters

• Survival Streak sortie count
• Returned Alive Kills
• Total Kills (though this may be irrelevant, though could still list it, perhaps more specific to number of kills during survival streak)

for bombers

• Survival Streak sortie count
• Ground kill count (during survival streak)

for overall

• Survival Streak sortie count
• total score

NOTE, there would be no "Stats reset" on death.  Only the Survival Streak would reset, thus this would only impact the leader boards.  All other stats would remain active even on death and would only do a complete reset at end of month as is done now.

[CIA_Luth]

just to bring another point of view,  and not necessarily mine, but what about those pilots who are just flying for fun?
maybe their survival stats arent that important to them.  maybe they are only concerned with having some fun flying shooting and bombing.  how would you track their stats and reflect it on the leader boards?

i think you would find, if you could take a survey or something,  that most pilots who fly here are less concerned about a high percentage of "survived" sorties,  and are more concerned about just having a good time. 

why not leave the stats system the way it is, and simply add another stats category to track this "survival percentage"?seems like that would be much easier than creating a whole new system.

[WindWpn]

just to bring another point of view,  and not necessarily mine, but what about those pilots who are just flying for fun?
maybe their survival stats arent that important to them.  maybe they are only concerned with having some fun flying shooting and bombing.  how would you track their stats and reflect it on the leader boards?

i think you would find, if you could take a survey or something,  that most pilots who fly here are less concerned about a high percentage of "survived" sorties,  and are more concerned about just having a good time.  

why not leave the stats system the way it is, and simply add another stats category to track this "survival percentage"?seems like that would be much easier than creating a whole new system.

For those "Flying for fun" it would not matter.  They are flying for fun, thus stats are unimportant.  No worries for the "for fun" flyers, as this proposed stats change would make no difference to them, and heck if they were flying for fun and surviving, they would make the board!  Additionally, those interested in personal stats (was I shot down more than I shot down others), this would all remain unchanged.  Only the Leader Boards would be impacted by survival.  For those only tracking their individual stats, there would be no difference, all individual pilot/squadron stats would remain unchanged and fully counted.

Note, not sure of others suggestions, but mine would only affect leader boards.  The change would allow for "anyone" whether flying 10 sorties or 100 in a given month, to make the leader board, as long as the pilot survives.  Also, simply with survival counted, it would promote "smarter" but fun flying in a realistic enviro.  

Again though for the "Fun flyers" it really is a non-issue, and bottom line, we are all here to have fun whether concerned with survival and realism, making the leader board, or simply going up to try and shoot down or bomb something with no concern for survival when we have a few hours during our busy lives to spend flying around on these servers.


NOTE, if "Survival Streak" is not a parameter tracked in the stats tracking software, and/or the Leader Board parameters are not configurable, then I would not spend too much effort to change the current system.  However, if it is a relatively minor change, it would be worth it to try it for a month.  See how it goes.  If its a bust with lots of complaints, etc... then simply go back to original formula.  Can not hurt to try though if the FBDJ stat tracking software supports it.