Comments on - A Way Too Long Discourse on Flight Model Disputes

[ThunderBear]

hey Mack
I do remember this post ,,eeh. I have same thinking today. You type to long and think too much,budy.
 But you make good missions too. So we has to stand on your side aall the way even today.
 Keep up the good work Mack , Bear keep your six clear.

And nothing is new in IL2 and some day we all will fly Sow-Clod or whoth the name will be that day, in 1C, " 2 weeks "

My Clod is a bookstand, but its in the comp also, rearly flying it .

But lets hope for some  4.11 new maps. I do like that new bombsetting as a mudmover.

[Moekazi]

Lately i haven't been as concerned about flight models as much as gun models.  The German cannons are way over done.  What do i mean by this?  Well, getting hit by one means one of two things.  Either you're almost guaranteed to lose something major, or your plane starts snap rolling.  Losing parts doesn't bother me as much as the rolling part.  I've had B-25 instantly flip upside down, IL-2s go any number of ways, some planes i've had almost complete 2 rolls.  I've seen lots of gun film and heard many pilot accounts, but never have i ever seen planes get flipped around like this from cannon burst.  If you have, please post a link.

The reason why the rolling bothers me more than just losing a wing, or whatever, is because many times the plane is still somewhat flyable.  However, the spin is a death sentence sentence at low altitude.  All you need to do is BnZ a low guy, graze him with a cannon round or two, and his mostly perfect plane is in the dirt.  It rewards sloppy shooting because you can just spray around to get that one hit.  At higher altitude, it means you lose all your E, your speed, and now you're a sitting duck.

As much as i like Red planes, i'm considering joining the mob on Blue.  Why choose 8 x .50 cals that won't do the job when a glancing 108 will?

[CIA_Luth]

i guess you have never been hit by a single hispano from a spit or a tempest, have you. same thing happens to a fw or a me when hit.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Actually, no that doesn't happen to 190s or to 109s. It's limited to US planes and some early russian ones, as well as a couple of British ones.

He's talking about a hit in the wing causing an instant and unstoppable roll, even if you were flying straight and level. It can't be countered with ailerons, and you just have to wait until your airplanes stops rolling before you can start to recover.

It's a damage model bug, since it only happens to certain aircraft. It does not however have anything to with German guns, as the same thing happens when a Zero 20mm hits a Hellcat wing.

[CIA_Luth]

actually, it does happen to 190s and 109s.  i repeat,  it does happen.  old story,  moving on.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Definately not to 109s, I fly those enough (and shoot at them enough) to know that they do not exhibit this behavior when receiving wing hits. 190s I fly considerably less often, but I've never seen one flick roll uncontrollably when I've shot one down (and that were hundreds).

But regardless of wether it happens to 190s or 109s or not, you can't deny that it only happens to certain planes and not others for no discernable reason. Why does the P51 have it but not the Spitfire? The LaGG does it but not the Yaks (at least later version don't). Even the Halifax does it fairly consistently, it goes into a slow roll and it feels like you've lost a wing but once it reaches roughly a 45 degree angle you can suddenly recover it without issues.

And like Moekazi said it also consistently happens to Il2s and B25s when they receive wing hits.

The only consistency there is is that it seems to affect all US fighters, Army and navy ones. It has all the hallmarks of a bug, unless someone knows a good reason for why it specifically happens only to these aircraft. 

[CIA_Luth]

youre right, after 10+ years, no one has discovered this glaring error.


regardless,  it happens to all planes, to one degree or another.


next

[78thFG_KV]

They have to handicap the US fighter's somehow  . I mean think about it; for an Axis pilot it's acceptable to be shot down by cannon equipped British planes because the excuse is those aircraft are over-modeled "uber" etc. But to be shot down by an American fighter is simply unthinkable (in an engagement that started neutral, bounces don't really mean much). This is because the Axis pilot understands how difficult it is for American fighters to score a confirmed victory against them.

Like [edit]Moekazi stated, for American fighter's it requires quite precise shooting, and precise flying to overcome ME-109s in a fight, FW-190s really have no business dogfighting IMO. There can be no excuse for the Luftwaffe when shot down by an American fighter in an engagement that started neutral (namely ME-109s).

ME-109 and FW-190 shooters can afford to be sloppy, not requiring nearly as much skill to bring down American aircraft. Like it's stated. One hit will often depart a wing, fuselage, detonation, or put the aircraft into a 'scripted' roll causing many deaths at low level. Axis=fly sloppy, spray at the target and hope for a single hit; whereas pilots of American platforms have to be very good shots, and don't have the luxury of being sloppy, unskilled, or inexperienced.

This all goes without saying though The Luftwaffe knows what's up  . When they look out the canopy and see themselves facing a single, or pair of American platforms, then shortly thereafter find themselves dead, dangling from the chute, or tumbling across the ground at over 200mph; they KNOW they were facing a superior stick. They KNOW that their first mistake was wondering into Allied airspace where they don't belong, and probably the most important mistake was underestimating the paint on that American aircraft, cause like someone else has said "It's all about the paint" lol  

Getting caught outnumbered, with low SA, or bounced is kinda standard and not much to "salute" or be proud about; but when he sees you, you see him and no one else is around...he knows what's going on   That's why we see them run more often now than they used to...out of fear, knowing the likelihood they're going to get their asses whipped is very high. So whilst the Axis pilot being in a superior plane in most respects, it often isn't enough to overcome that outstanding instrument of warfare, American Pilot and Paint  

 

[iLOVEwindmills]

youre right, after 10+ years, no one has discovered this glaring error.


regardless,  it happens to all planes, to one degree or another.


next

Well if you only fly blue planes then you probably haven't noticed it, since it is a pretty consistent and reproducable occurence among the aircraft that suffer from this.

Like iLoveWindmills stated, for American fighter's it requires quite precise shooting, and precise flying to overcome ME-109s in a fight, FW-190s really have no business dogfighting IMO. There can be no excuse for the Luftwaffe when shot down by an American fighter in an engagement that started neutral (namely ME-109s).

I didn't say anything like that, I'm simply elaborating on what Moekazi pointed out as not being caused by German guns specifically, but being related to FMs of the respective planes.

In any case this is not something that can be worked out by mission designers so it's a moot topic to debate on here. I was already intending to make a post about this and some other stuff on the UP forums where it probably belongs.

[78thFG_KV]

You're right, I'm sorry, I was elaborating on what Moekazi said in the latter part of his post.

[CIA_Luth]

 

[MackStones]

It happens to both Red and Blue aircraft ... unfortunately, whichever Blue or Red aircraft I'm flying  .

The thing that really gets me made is when a cannon blast (or AAA for that matter) takes over the outer 3 inches of a B-17/B-24 wing, and then you lose complete control of your aircraft. 

[Moekazi]

I'd just like to clarify that there's nothing slow about the rolls i'm talking about.  My first recollection of this happening i was flying a B25 level on the deck at about 100m.  I took a hit and was flipped upside down faster than i could say, "Holy Schmidt!".  All i could do was push stick forward to gain altitude so i could roll back over.  The Il2 seems the most ridiculous because you'll take one hit and suddenly be knife edged one way, hit again, and spun 215 degrees back the other.  It's enough that if you get hit once, you want to be hit again in the hopes that next one straightens you back up.

I don't know about it happening to Blue planes because i've mostly been playing Red.  I suspected it was a Red problem because i've never hit a Blue plane and seen them do the wacky roll.  The few times i've played Blue, i've never been hit and done the wacky roll.  Just my experience.


I'd also like to elaborate on the rant a little.  It came from frustration when i was flying a P47 and got three separate hits on a 109.  The last hit being at about 150m directly on his 6.  As i saw little pieces flying by my canopy, he started jinking and suckered me into a close, slow turn fight whereupon i stalled and fell a few meters to my death.  Getting a P47s cannons on a 109 three separate times in a fight is not easy (for me at least).  Having them do essentially nil to the plane i'm shooting at makes the whole effort seem pointless.  Especially when i get absolutely wrecked when the roles are reversed.  All those guns do seem to work well enough on ground targets, though!

[78thFG_KV]

You're right Moekazi,

I've NEVER been thrown into a scripted roll when flying blue.

As for bringing down 109s and 190s try shortening your convergence to 150-200 meters. In the P-47 both of those aircraft are at approx 200M when their wingtips are nearly touching the outer diameter of your N-9 sight ring. You gotta hit them hard too, with 2 to 3 second bursts. The problem is that 6 and 8 gun platforms have much more recoil than most other gun systems in this game, so it's hard to keep your shots at tight impact densities, which is where most of your serious damage will occur.

The Jug is one of the hardest aircraft for me personally to score kills in (simply because I prefer aircraft with better rollrates and it suites my flying style). BnZ with the Jug is excellent, just don't expect to get alot of kills, most especially in a single pass (unless you get skilled at killing the pilot, which is what you should be aiming for anyway using M2 Browning .50s).

If there is anything I could stress practicing on is making that shot count (it's a constant evolving training for me lol). Focus very intently on your shooting accuracy and things will improve as your hit % increases with dedicated practice.

With the planes we fly, we don't have that luxury to be sloppy or unskilled when it comes to delivering weapons; you gotta be really precise and careful, something I don't nearly have as much discipline as I should.

Just keep in mind though, whenever you do bring a machine down, what it takes to do so...by comparison to the mounts your opponents are riding in...it should bring a good deal of satisfaction knowing that you ripped him apart using weapon systems that are inferior to what he carries in his ride.

[CaptStubing]

Wow…  Some pretty laughable comments made in this thread clearly meant to make people feel better about themselves.  What is really funny about this is most of these comments are coming from people don’t fly both sides.  As Mack stated it happens on both sides and to all aircraft when being struck by 20 and 30mm cannons.
  
As far as the other comments about flying inferior this and inferior that…  It’s nothing more than an ego stroke and that door swings both ways.   All of those comments can be heard on public comms daily and that goes for both sides.  Those that don’t fly both sides shouldn’t comment until they do so.  Because If you actually took the time to fly either team I can guarantee most of the comments being made in this thread will literally disappear because most of them are untrue and unfounded.
 
I think some of you forget that the beauty of flying this game is there is so much to explore.  If you are that close minded about flying the other side you will never learn anything.  If you think you are a better pilot because you can fly one side then I say you will never be good in the long run because you will be very limited in your skill and knowledge about the foe you’re facing.
  
Now who is the better stick the pilot that can fly one type of plane or one that can fly any plane in the set and put up the same numbers?  This small minded mentality is what causes 10 page threads about nonsense of which most of it is based upon false Perception and nothing else.  How do I know?    It becomes blatantly obvious when you have flown both sides.