Comments on - A Way Too Long Discourse on Flight Model Disputes

[78thFG_KV]

Yeah that's right, removing a bug when struck by one cannon round that keeps the defender from maneuvering at all (like jinking an attack) for several seconds...or causing them to crash...won't reduce the success rate of the Luftwaffe at all in this game. Let's not forget that this doesn't just happen to fighters, but large bombers/attack aircraft as well.

Also, it happened all the time during the actual war where Allied aircraft were struck by 20mm and were still combat effective, and also made it back to their home airbase; it all just depends on where they were hit and from what range.

Too bad cannon accuracy and effectiveness at range (beyond 200 meters) isn't modeled, or the damage effects. HE projectile failure rate doesn't seem to be modeled. Like others have posted, this rewards sloppy shooting; ie being able to spray at long range in high hopes that one HE round strikes a target aircraft beyond its maximum effective range and either de-wings it, or sends them out of control spinning into the ground. Of course this goes for all cannons, with the exception of the rolling bug.

I can understand the chagrin of pilots who used limitations of the game to evade an attack by pushing and pulling extreme load factors, that's how they learned to survive in here...taking advantage of inadequate modeling rather than learning proper defensive BFM.

It would be nice to have G meters in the aircraft that had them. 

[Gromit]

the structural limits affect both sides so it's horses for courses to me, try to avoid it ,I say this as the muppet who lost two tempest 11lb's on the trot when tipping into a dive to bomb, neg G makes the wings fall off and I thought the flak got me

the flip however only effects aircraft hit by the MG151/20, to be able to bring down an aircraft with a single hit because it cant recover from an impossible reaction places unnaceptable limitations on one side only, that needs to be addressed, other than that I'm reasonably happy with the way the game runs, although we all get irate at some of the odd physics in the game, especially the damage modelling, I can live with it!

[CaptStubing]

Yeah that's right, removing a bug when struck by one cannon round that keeps the defender from maneuvering at all (like jinking an attack) for several seconds...or causing them to crash...won't reduce the success rate of the Luftwaffe at all in this game. Let's not forget that this doesn't just happen to fighters, but large bombers/attack aircraft as well.

Also, it happened all the time during the actual war where Allied aircraft were struck by 20mm and were still combat effective, and also made it back to their home airbase; it all just depends on where they were hit and from what range.

On average it took only 4 20mms to take down a fighter... That isn't to suggest nobody made it home.  I know you think the success of the Axis will now somehow magically go down all because airplanes aren't being flipped.  Bottom line is if you are being hit by 20mms in the first place you're not in a good position to survive.  I hope that makes sense.  I've certainly gotten kills from hitting someone low on the deck and spun in and I've had it done to me.  Most people that have been flying this game for the past 5 plus years have gotten used to alot of the issues you're describing but some are more offensive than others.  Everyone has a beef at some point or another.  It's clear you're just learning about them now.  Just take a look at what they fixed in the new 4.11.1 release.  This game is far from perfect but it does represent WWII airplanes weapons systems and behaviors very well.  Most people are quick to point out what they don't like about the opposition.

Too bad cannon accuracy and effectiveness at range (beyond 200 meters) isn't modeled, or the damage effects. HE projectile failure rate doesn't seem to be modeled. Like others have posted, this rewards sloppy shooting; ie being able to spray at long range in high hopes that one HE round strikes a target aircraft beyond its maximum effective range and either de-wings it, or sends them out of control spinning into the ground. Of course this goes for all cannons, with the exception of the rolling bug.

Too bad we don't have a lot of things...  And BTW where do you get your facts about the effective range of the MG151/20? Just a little reading suggests the effective range was 400M and that doesn't state what the max effective range.   Most accounts against fighters from the German aces said they got very close and most kills were against people taken by surprise.  I guess it makes you feel better about yourself stating it's sloppy shooting and weapons effectiveness as to why you were defeated.  As I stated earlier the trick is not to get shot at in the first place.  Also doesn't it take skill to put you into those shooting parameters?  I guess that is discounted too right?  Silly stuff KV.  

You should go back and take a look at some of the performance numbers for some of the planes that are NOW available on the server.  I think you will be surprised to find in some cases the Axis is simply out matched... yet they remain effective.  I would say overall depending on when you fly this sever it comes down to teamwork and not the ride you're in.  I've been in some pretty spectacular planes and lost fights because I was alone.  I think there are a lot of guys on their own comms coordinating and that is real tough to beat.  .    

I can understand the chagrin of pilots who used limitations of the game to evade an attack by pushing and pulling extreme load factors, that's how they learned to survive in here...taking advantage of inadequate modeling rather than learning proper defensive BFM.

Wow...  I don't think you realize just how arrogant that sounds.  In some cases when you are persued by someone in an Allied ride you don't have much of a choice. When you have airplanes that are faster turn better climb better and do almost everything better your only option is to defeat his shots and hope that someone scrapes him off of you.  Also that door swings both ways.   It would be nice if we can feel the actual Gs on the plane other than some little flashing G.  But after all this is game nothing more.

[78thFG_KV]

 I know you think the success of the Axis will now somehow magically go down all because airplanes aren't being flipped.  

It isn't magic, it's a mathematical certainty. 

Bottom line is if you are being hit by 20mms in the first place you're not in a good position to survive.  

That could be said about any weapon system. Although we're really not concerned about that, but the imbalance that is readily apparent due to it being caused primarily by the MG151/20mm.

 I guess it makes you feel better about yourself stating it's sloppy shooting and weapons effectiveness as to why you were defeated.  As I stated earlier the trick is not to get shot at in the first place.  Also doesn't it take skill to put you into those shooting parameters?  I guess that is discounted too right?  Silly stuff KV.  

What's the purpose of getting personal?  Like Hades stated in my thread at UP Team's forums, the weight of the HE round is tied to the damage model, so it doesn't matter what range you're struck by it, it still causes the same damage. Everyone knows that at range, the effectiveness and most especially the accuracy of cannon shells drops off dramatically..we don't see that here. Luftwaffe pilots here know this and are rewarded with poor gunnery by hosing at their bandit, begging for a single shell to hit and do the same devastation at excessive ranges as it does at effective ranges of the weapon system  ...that's why they do it.

As for feeling better? That doesn't make any sense and sounds a bit juvenile to me; anytime I get shot down or shot up and crash is because I was somewhere I shouldn't have been in the first place...or for any number of other reasons. The fact that my opponents have great luxuries with their weapon systems, damage/crash model, and have an easier time of bringing machines down is just a matter of course, and only sweetens the deal when I bring one of them down because of the greater difficulty involved at doing so  And no, it doesn't take any skill to spray at a fighter knowing if you're lucky to get a single strike that it stops the fight right there....at least by comparison to the aircraft I use...which takes far far more effort, attention to detail, and precision to bring down the Axis airframes.
 

You should go back and take a look at some of the performance numbers for some of the planes that are NOW available on the server.  I think you will be surprised to find in some cases the Axis is simply out matched... yet they remain effective.  I would say overall depending on when you fly this sever it comes down to teamwork and not the ride you're in.  I've been in some pretty spectacular planes and lost fights because I was alone.  I think there are a lot of guys on their own comms coordinating and that is real tough to beat.  

I dunno, you'll have to bring that up and debate it with a Spitfire pilot (or insert any other high performance British aircraft)...I don't fly them (with the exception of the occasional Hurricane). When I flew Spitfires I spent most of my time laughing because it resembles the Axis aircraft when it comes to how easy it is to destroy an aerial target outright. It's not even fun, which is why I don't fly them.   
 

Wow...  I don't think you realize just how arrogant that sounds.  In some cases when you are persued by someone in an Allied ride you don't have much of a choice. When you have airplanes that are faster turn better climb better and do almost everything better your only option is to defeat his shots and hope that someone scrapes him off of you.  Also that door swings both ways.   It would be nice if we can feel the actual Gs on the plane other than some little flashing G.  But after all this is game nothing more.

How it sounds to you is of no consequence, it's simply a fact...taking advantage of the inadequacies in aircraft flight models to evade attack rather than using real world tactics and maneuvers isn't their fault...they simply don't know any better...or if they do...they don't care and game the game, rather than simming the game. That capability was removed, and was corrected to the best of their ability at the time...and allows for more realistic types of engagements than the extreme crazy funky chicken maneuvers of the past. There were oceans of tears when suddenly, pilots couldn't yank on the stick anymore and put the aircraft into highly unrealistic maneuvers to evade attacks, and there were barrels of laughter from this side of the house when it was modified...just like what will happen when/if this scripted damage model is fixed.

[CaptStubing]

That could be said about any weapon system. Although we're really not concerned about that, but the imbalance that is readily apparent due to it being caused primarily by the MG151/20mm.

Imbalance is relative at best.  Some planes perform better than others period.  That is exactly why this game kicks bootay. Knowing you beat the pants of some clown in a clown car is quite fun.  Sometimes its Axis and some times its Allied.  

What's the purpose of getting personal?   Like Hades stated in my thread at UP Team's forums, the weight of the HE round is tied to the damage model, so it doesn't matter what range you're struck by it, it still causes the same damage. Everyone knows that at range, the effectiveness and most especially the accuracy of cannon shells drops off dramatically..we don't see that here. Luftwaffe pilots here know this and are rewarded with poor gunnery by hosing at their bandit, begging for a single shell to hit and do the same devastation at excessive ranges as it does at effective ranges of the weapon system  ...that's why they do it.

first you're just wrong.  Guys are good at shooting because they only fly 2 kinds of planes for fighters for the most part.   Secondly Oleg and team didn't find it to be so unbalancing to add in the feature/bug.   To be honest I think flipping is over the top but I don't really care.  In terms of your perpetual 50 cal versus 20mms discussion I'm going to leave it alone.  Bottom line is the 20mms out perform the .50cals by a large margin as they did in real life.  It is a complete waste of time trying to convince you about effective ranges of 20mms as you don't have the facts straight even from your previous post.  Luftwaffe pilots in real life with real life MG151s put up incredible kill ratios.  Most of them didn't make it home alive after a 4 year tour and the few that did was a real testimate of their resolve.  Rall and others real life examples of just how effective these machines were.  Sadly so many people parished but that is a different story all together.  You might want to religate the LW pilots that fly here to guys that can be sloppy shooters but I can assure you that isn't the case.  Certainly their weapons are very effective giving them firepower but often they are out matchted by their Allied Counter Part.  Just read some performance figures and you will quickly see just who has the numbers.  Regardless this sounds more like a justification for making you feel better about being defeated.  The door swings both ways.  The British planes on this server are exceptional and some have even more hitting power than the MG151.  Pound for pound the Hispanos hit harder.  That is fact.  Just look up the hitting effects in the game written up in  the UP forums.  The fact is the .50s are very effective in taking someone out with 27 seconds of sloppy fire can take controls PK and render any Axis ride worthless.  I know you want to feel better that sometimes you don't have kill ratios like the Cannoned armed planes.  If people would actually let people go without kills stealing or making sure someone is completely downed you might see your numbers changed.  This is just how this server and game works.

As for feeling better? That doesn't make any sense and sounds a bit juvenile to me; anytime I get shot down or shot up and crash is because I was somewhere I shouldn't have been in the first place...or for any number of other reasons. The fact that my opponents have great luxuries with their weapon systems, damage/crash model, and have an easier time of bringing machines down is just a matter of course, and only sweetens the deal when I bring one of them down because of the greater difficulty involved at doing so   And no, it doesn't take any skill to spray at a fighter knowing if you're lucky to get a single strike that it stops the fight right there....at least by comparison to the aircraft I use...which takes far far more effort, attention to detail, and precision to bring down the Axis airframes.

Complete nonsese here.  This is nothing more than some sort of crutch you hold on to explain why you where defeated somehow.  Fact remains that if you are being shot at...  You are not in a position with advantage.  They had to get there somehow.  It wasn't magic and they actually have to hit you.  It doesn't take long with nose mounted weapons become good at this and "learn the trick"  Most of my shots are well under my nose in the FW with crummy frontal poor vision.  Certainly it doesn't take much from a 4 cannon plane but you have to get there.  Against certain Allied planes this isn't easy. Most kills just like real life come from surprise.  It better count because some planes can turn the tide very quickly.  So to reiterate.  Most of my shots are High Deflection sometimes like a 90 angle off tail shots because some Spit driver pulled 9 gs going evasive.  If I stay with him in a lag I will die.  If I yo yo (high or Low) he can turn inside me on a dime and get a snap shot.    This isn't super star BFM this is basics.  Part of the game.

It's really clear you think because you fly American Allied birds you're the better pilot.  You really need to fly the other side for a while then get back to me.  51s in this game are very deadly.  Up high 47s are almost unbeatable.  P-39 depending  are excellent counterparts low.  It does depend on the models.  I would say with the exception of the early war P-40s going up against early war 109s you're going to have a lot of problems.  

I dunno, you'll have to bring that up and debate it with a Spitfire pilot (or insert any other high performance British aircraft)...I don't fly them (with the exception of the occasional Hurricane). When I flew Spitfires I spent most of my time laughing because it resembles the Axis aircraft when it comes to how easy it is to destroy an aerial target outright. It's not even fun, which is why I don't fly them..

What ever floats your boat man.  It doesn't always make you a better stick.  It takes skill to get good any anything in this game.  Spits make life easier.  Fantastic fighters as they were in real life.      
 

How it sounds to you is of no consequence, it's simply a fact...taking advantage of the inadequacies in aircraft flight models to evade attack rather than using real world tactics and maneuvers isn't their fault...they simply don't know any better...or if they do...they don't care and game the game, rather than simming the game. That capability was removed, and was corrected to the best of their ability at the time...and allows for more realistic types of engagements than the extreme crazy funky chicken maneuvers of the past. There were oceans of tears when suddenly, pilots couldn't yank on the stick anymore and put the aircraft into highly unrealistic maneuvers to evade attacks, and there were barrels of laughter from this side of the house when it was modified...just like what will happen when/if this scripted damage model is fixed.

You have been drinking way too much cool aid.  And if it makes you feel better that you know proper BFM then great.  They do it to evade shots and no matter how silly you think it is it happens on both sides end of story.  

[Scorpion230]

I think this is turning into a generally destructive argument. To put this back on track when talking about such subject break it down to logic format.
I don’t play RED or BLUE, don’t care for either, don’t have a (insert favorite man crush ace picture) hanging on my wall. I play balance see which team is lower on count and join that.

This talk about realism VS Game VS player Skill is not new been around forever in any simulator, be it a game simulator, a full fledged level D simulator or even an integrated military grade 300mil US$ simulated combat environment.

To the subject at hand, is simple; and her is how we work on it in actual defense grade simulator and simulated environments.
Can a 20mm with 18grams of HE flip an Airplane? NO, that it its done close subject and move on.

What a 20mm or .50cal does to an aircraft when it is another subject for DO not mix the 2, don’t mix what flight model is there and in the most utterly dueled way mix what Realistic is, what balance is when it comes to a combat environment.

109 is good plane? Yes fact, 20mm/151/20 good gun? Yes fact. But if that’s your argument and scream with full text books of historical accuracy, that’s good for you, all of that is not IL2. All of that is not a sim or a game.

When you come with an argument of realism VS balance, and bring realistic charts and throw around gun cam footage, pilot reelections, and fantasy abstract damage digits.  You must, and have to take into account EVRY single other element in a realistic fashion as well.
Using the logic of most people who argue, that blue should be superior in terms of aircraft guns flight model, then lets take the entire battlefield of world war 2 into account. No Fuel for half the game, no Spare Parts for half the game, Red must out number blue 10:1, bombers must fly in formations of no less than 40. With fighter escort of 20+. Higher stoppage and malfunction rate on blue airplanes. Blue Airfields can be strafed, bombed, invaded by troops. Pilot had limited training for lets put a 20degree cap on flight stick movements and paint the window to simulated lower skill.

Same above can be asked of red depending on the scenario that you want to simulate.  HOWEVER, if you want to simulate BALANCE then that’s a totally different subject that non of the above seem to seek.

I am glad and happy with the new changes to the plane set, first time in months that I can see almost balance teams, a bit heavy handed in some maps. But still almost balanced teams.

[78thFG_KV]

first you're just wrong.  Guys are good at shooting because they only fly 2 kinds of planes for fighters for the most part.   Secondly Oleg and team didn't find it to be so unbalancing to add in the feature/bug.

   What does this have to do with anything? It doesn't matter who finds it to be "unbalancing" or not, it's a bug that gives the Luftwaffe an advantage. That's already known.

  To be honest I think flipping is over the top but I don't really care.

  Well which is it, you think it's a legitimate problem or you don't care? Of course, as someone who scores most of their shootdowns with German fighters I'd can't imagine why you wouldn't care whether this problem was corrected or not; especially being the leader of an Axis unit  I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with your bias AT ALL 

 In terms of your perpetual 50 cal versus 20mms discussion I'm going to leave it alone.  Bottom line is the 20mms out perform the .50cals by a large margin as they did in real life.

Well make up your mind, you going to leave it alone, or bring up this comparison that doesn't matter one bit?  No one cares about this comparison...it's already well known that the individual cartridge power of cannon shells is more efficient than the individual cartridge power of the Browning M2 .50 caliber round... If there's an argument, it needs to be made about the individual weapon system, not really by comparing it to another one of a completely different type. I don't feel that this belongs in this discussion anyhow, so I'm not really sure why you brought it up, you seem to be confused.

 It is a complete waste of time trying to convince you about effective ranges of 20mms as you don't have the facts straight even from your previous post.

"It is also worth pointing out that most successful attacks in WW2 took place at fairly short ranges at which different projectile ballistics would not have had a major effect on destructiveness. During 1940 the RAF rapidly dropped the harmonisation distance for their fighter guns from 370 to 230m, and were annoyed that the narrow gun bays in the Spitfire's wing prevented them from harmonising the 20mm cannon down to their preferred distance of 180m (at which they did most ammunition effectiveness testing). Although successful attacks at longer ranges were possible, particularly against large, stable targets like heavy bombers (as the Luftwaffe discovered), it seems probable that the great majority of shoot-downs took place between 100 and 300m. This is often not appreciated by players of combat sims, who think that the ability to score routinely at ranges of 1,000m or more in their games reflects WW2 reality – it doesn't!"

 Regardless this sounds more like a justification for making you feel better about being defeated.  The door swings both ways.  The British planes on this server are exceptional and some have even more hitting power than the MG151.  Pound for pound the Hispanos hit harder.  That is fact.  Just look up the hitting effects in the game written up in  the UP forums.

Sorry, but I have to say "Duh"..no sh!t lol...take a look: 

Here you've got Weapon Type, Dimension, Cartridge Power, Cartridge Damage, and approximate number of strikes required to bring down a fighter sized target:

MG 151/20   20x82           16   151,67    4

Hispano II   20x110   20   197,5    3,07

Hispano V   20x110   20   197,5    3,07


Even though the Hispano (and several other 20mm cannon systems) have a higher cartridge power, they don't cause this ridiculous violation in the laws of physics when it comes to striking an aerial target, whether fighter sized, or bomber sized. You've also got the debate of damage modeling, where Luftwaffe ME-109s can absorb far more strikes from the rear when hit by Hispano, than Allied aircraft can when hit by the MG151/20. Deflection strikes is another story.

 The fact is the .50s are very effective in taking someone out with 27 seconds of sloppy fire can take controls PK and render any Axis ride worthless.  I know you want to feel better that sometimes you don't have kill ratios like the Cannoned armed planes.  If people would actually let people go without kills stealing or making sure someone is completely downed you might see your numbers changed.  This is just how this server and game works.

You should change your callsign to CaptObvious lol    jk

What's all this talk lately about "feeling better" from you recently? Lol, where do these strange comments find a place in this discussion?

In regards to kill ratios, that doesn't have much to do with kill stealing or ending fights by catastrophic failures inflicted upon the target aircraft...but moreso with the error in the server software in how it scores a confirmed kill. There is an error that will not be corrected until the next UP Team update, that when an aircraft is forced down from enemy fire, but the pilot survives the crash...the victor is only given a probable...and not an outright confirmed kill.

Due to this problem, the kill ratios on the Spits_vs_109s statistics pages are lopsided for the Axis team with the ME-109 crash/damage model being porked (pilots surviving insane crash parameters...thus only awarding their attacker a probable, instead of outright victory and confirmed shootdowns).

Once this is fixed upon the next version, you'll not only see kill ratios change, but tactics will change again for both sides...and it won't be necessary to try and pump every last round into a target aircraft trying to ensure victory (even so far as strafing ME-109  pilots or Spit pilots that have crashed but survived).

Complete nonsese here.  This is nothing more than some sort of crutch you hold on to explain why you where defeated somehow.  Fact remains that if you are being shot at...  You are not in a position with advantage.  They had to get there somehow.  It wasn't magic and they actually have to hit you.

Lol  Here we go getting personal again...what is it with that?

Here, check this out  you might have missed it the first time even though you quoted it:

anytime I get shot down or shot up and crash is because I was somewhere I shouldn't have been in the first place...or for any number of other reasons.

That doesn't detract from the truth that do to this bug (and other inefficiencies in damage/weapon system modeling), the Luftwaffe is rewarded with poor gunnery.

That's not to say that all Luftwaffe pilots are poor shots, just that it doesn't require nearly as much skill to bring down an aircraft as it does with the mounts that I use. That's where the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment come in, but that doesn't really have much of a place here in this discussion...perhaps you can start a thread about "feel good" parameters on success or failure rates in this game lol, sense that seems to be a recurring theme from you recently. 

 It doesn't take long with nose mounted weapons become good at this and "learn the trick"  Most of my shots are well under my nose in the FW with crummy frontal poor vision.  Certainly it doesn't take much from a 4 cannon plane but you have to get there.  Against certain Allied planes this isn't easy. Most kills just like real life come from surprise.  It better count because some planes can turn the tide very quickly.  So to reiterate.  Most of my shots are High Deflection sometimes like a 90 angle off tail shots because some Spit driver pulled 9 gs going evasive.  If I stay with him in a lag I will die.  If I yo yo (high or Low) he can turn inside me on a dime and get a snap shot.    This isn't super star BFM this is basics.  Part of the game.

Well good job brother! Lol@super star BFM&basics...BFM IS Basics...Basic Fighter Maneuvers...nothing advanced.

It's really clear you think because you fly American Allied birds you're the better pilot.  You really need to fly the other side for a while then get back to me.  51s in this game are very deadly.  Up high 47s are almost unbeatable.  P-39 depending  are excellent counterparts low.  It does depend on the models.  I would say with the exception of the early war P-40s going up against early war 109s you're going to have a lot of problems.  

  You shouldn't be so concerned with what I think in regards to what I fly  You're being CaptObvious again here. P-51s are deadly, they're great BnZ energy fighters and in some cases very nice in the phone booth too...they can outrun you or run you down. As has been posted so many times, they lack hitting power in only some models due to belting configurations and excessive recoil to their weapon systems.

The P-47 IS outstanding up high, but those types of engagements rarely take place here in this server, and the Jug's victory/defeat ratios suffer from it because they're intercepted on ground attack missions. The Aircobra is just a fine piece of equipment with a really big ass cannon.

As for the P-40, for me personally I just love this plane although it is outmatched in most envelopes when met on neutral territory.

You have been drinking way too much cool aid.  And if it makes you feel better that you know proper BFM then great.  They do it to evade shots and no matter how silly you think it is it happens on both sides end of story.  

Well, those extreme maneuvers don't take place anymore do they haha  , pilots lose their wings when they try that sillyness now, and you see them complain about it. They're now forced to learn how to defend if they wish to have any hopes in turning the tables once they're in trouble. However, some don't learn, they just perform the same type of push/pull maneuvers or inverted negative G pushups to a lesser degree because if they don't, they get serious structural damage. Bottom line though, if a pilot finds himself in a defensive situation, the only way he's gonna survive is if his attacker makes a mistake...Defensive BFM only gives a pilot tools to try and get that mistake to come.

[78thFG_KV]

To the subject at hand, is simple; and her is how we work on it in actual defense grade simulator and simulated environments.
Can a 20mm with 18grams of HE flip an Airplane? NO, that it its done close subject and move on.

What a 20mm or .50cal does to an aircraft when it is another subject for DO not mix the 2, don’t mix what flight model is there and in the most utterly dueled way mix what Realistic is, what balance is when it comes to a combat environment.

109 is good plane? Yes fact, 20mm/151/20 good gun? Yes fact. But if that’s your argument and scream with full text books of historical accuracy, that’s good for you, all of that is not IL2. All of that is not a sim or a game.

Very well said Scorpion.

[CaptStubing]

  What does this have to do with anything? It doesn't matter who finds it to be "unbalancing" or not, it's a bug that gives the Luftwaffe an advantage. That's already known.

Debateable at best and some weapons systems have advantages over others.  To sit there and point out Balance issues when in real life there isn't any such thing is a complete waste of time. As described before we have Disparate airplanes and weapons in the game just like in real life.   

Well which is it, you think it's a legitimate problem or you don't care? Of course, as someone who scores most of their shootdowns with German fighters I'd can't imagine why you wouldn't care whether this problem was corrected or not; especially being the leader of an Axis unit  I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with your bias AT ALL  .

For someone who likes to look at stats you would be wrong on this one...  I've flown mostly Allied this month.  Just last night I was hit by one of those crazy insane MG151 rounds and flipped.  I recovered and went on with the fight.  Regardless if the squad I fly in I fly both sides which is somehting you cannot claim yourself.  To claim I have a bais is again countered by the fact I fly both sides.  Again you can't make the same claim.   From now I'm going to completely discount your comments until I start to see some actual sorties flown for the Axis on this server.  I doubt I will see any.  Talk about bias

Well make up your mind, you going to leave it alone, or bring up this comparison that doesn't matter one bit?  No one cares about this comparison...it's already well known that the individual cartridge power of cannon shells is more efficient than the individual cartridge power of the Browning M2 .50 caliber round... If there's an argument, it needs to be made about the individual weapon system, not really by comparing it to another one of a completely different type. I don't feel that this belongs in this discussion anyhow, so I'm not really sure why you brought it up, you seem to be confused.

"It is also worth pointing out that most successful attacks in WW2 took place at fairly short ranges at which different projectile ballistics would not have had a major effect on destructiveness. During 1940 the RAF rapidly dropped the harmonisation distance for their fighter guns from 370 to 230m, and were annoyed that the narrow gun bays in the Spitfire's wing prevented them from harmonising the 20mm cannon down to their preferred distance of 180m (at which they did most ammunition effectiveness testing). Although successful attacks at longer ranges were possible, particularly against large, stable targets like heavy bombers (as the Luftwaffe discovered), it seems probable that the great majority of shoot-downs took place between 100 and 300m. This is often not appreciated by players of combat sims, who think that the ability to score routinely at ranges of 1,000m or more in their games reflects WW2 reality – it doesn't!".

You are losing sight of the big picture as you are getting caught up in details of the comparison.  The 20mm is far more effective at killing than the .50cal.  End of story.   If you do the math you will learn very quickly that most of the pure fighter airplanes of the Luftwaffe were modified to be more anti-bomber and ground attack as the war progressed.  Hence why you see up armored and larger weapons being put against the bombers streams. 

In terms of strategy if someone wants to take a pot shot at you at a 1000 meters in the hopes to get a round on target then so be it.  It just so happens some Axis planes have a lot of ammo.  Remember they pay for it in terms of weight and manuevering performance.  That isn't wrong or unrealistic in any shape or form. That goes for both sides.  I've shot at people with .50s and gotten PKs at a 1000m.   Your attempt to make it about someone being a better stick than one who doesn't take pot shots falls short.  It smells of some sort of I'm better than you because I fly X.   Who cares dude?      

Here you've got Weapon Type, Dimension, Cartridge Power, Cartridge Damage, and approximate number of strikes required to bring down a fighter sized target:

MG 151/20   20x82           16   151,67    4

Hispano II   20x110   20   197,5    3,07

Hispano V   20x110   20   197,5    3,07


Even though the Hispano (and several other 20mm cannon systems) have a higher cartridge power, they don't cause this ridiculous violation in the laws of physics when it comes to striking an aerial target, whether fighter sized, or bomber sized. You've also got the debate of damage modeling, where Luftwaffe ME-109s can absorb far more strikes from the rear when hit by Hispano, than Allied aircraft can when hit by the MG151/20. Deflection strikes is another story.

Thanks for proving my point.  The Hispanos hit harder than the MG151 and it only takes 3 rounds to bring down a fighter.  Should the Axis cry that there is unblance?  Ummm no.  That would be a waste of time. 

You should change your callsign to CaptObvious lol    jk.

Resorting to name calling even putting the JK afterwards is silly KV or Moccasin or what ever your name is today.

What's all this talk lately about "feeling better" from you recently? Lol, where do these strange comments find a place in this discussion?.

I think I must be striking a cord with you on this one.  Your comments seem to be coming from something else other than a discussion about Planes Flipping.  You sprinkle in comments such as Axis Pilots are taking advantage and are weaker sticks than their Allied Counterparts because they can spray and prey (both sides do it all the time) and that they flop around taking advantage of the weak FMs because they don't know BFM.  Again both sides do it all the time.  You would actually know that had you flown the Axis side on this server.

In regards to kill ratios, that doesn't have much to do with kill stealing or ending fights by catastrophic failures inflicted upon the target aircraft...but moreso with the error in the server software in how it scores a confirmed kill. There is an error that will not be corrected until the next UP Team update, that when an aircraft is forced down from enemy fire, but the pilot survives the crash...the victor is only given a probable...and not an outright confirmed kill.

Due to this problem, the kill ratios on the Spits_vs_109s statistics pages are lopsided for the Axis team with the ME-109 crash/damage model being porked (pilots surviving insane crash parameters...thus only awarding their attacker a probable, instead of outright victory and confirmed shootdowns)

Once this is fixed upon the next version, you'll not only see kill ratios change, but tactics will change again for both sides...and it won't be necessary to try and pump every last round into a target aircraft trying to ensure victory (even so far as strafing ME-109  pilots or Spit pilots that have crashed but survived).)..

I think this is more of an exception and not the rule.  I don't have any problems killing anything the Axis flys with any of the planes in the set.  If you think this is going to vastly change the stats I think you will be very disappointed. Axis planes go down.  Sure some crash land but that also happens with Allied planes.  Very few people try to ditch.  Most try to bail.

Here, check this out  you might have missed it the first time even though you quoted it:

That doesn't detract from the truth that do to this bug (and other inefficiencies in damage/weapon system modeling), the Luftwaffe is rewarded with poor gunnery.

That's not to say that all Luftwaffe pilots are poor shots, just that it doesn't require nearly as much skill to bring down an aircraft as it does with the mounts that I use. That's where the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment come in, but that doesn't really have much of a place here in this discussion...perhaps you can start a thread about "feel good" parameters on success or failure rates in this game lol, sense that seems to be a recurring theme from you recently.  .

Complete nonsense.... On average I shoot well into the teens with 20mms that goes for MG151s and Hispanos.  On average I shoot about 5-8 percent with .50cals.   That has to do with the amount of rounds and if I'm hitting them. I liken the .50s to be more of a spray and very high rates of fire.  That goes for 303s as well.   Shooting nose mounted weapons like the 109s  is much easier than shooting wing mounted weapons IMO.  It gets rid of convergence problems.  The FW on the other hand only needs a small burst to destroy a fighter time depending.  I don't hold down the trigger so I use much less ammo unlike the .50s. 

So to say  the Axis is rewarded with poor gunnery is pure speculation on your part and far from the truth.  It's obvious this an attempt to make you feel better about your flying skills and being able to down Axis planes only with .50s.  Whatever the reason it doesn't really matter as it adds nothing to this discussion.

Well, those extreme maneuvers don't take place anymore do they haha  , pilots lose their wings when they try that sillyness now, and you see them complain about it. They're now forced to learn how to defend if they wish to have any hopes in turning the tables once they're in trouble. However, some don't learn, they just perform the same type of push/pull maneuvers or inverted negative G pushups to a lesser degree because if they don't, they get serious structural damage. Bottom line though, if a pilot finds himself in a defensive situation, the only way he's gonna survive is if his attacker makes a mistake...Defensive BFM only gives a pilot tools to try and get that mistake to come.

Yep goes for both sides BTW.  Oh and thanks for confirming my point about 51s 47s P-39s and P40s. 

[78thFG_KV]

For someone who likes to look at stats you would be wrong on this one...  I've flown mostly Allied this month.  Just last night I was hit by one of those crazy insane MG151 rounds and flipped.  I recovered and went on with the fight.  Regardless if the squad I fly in I fly both sides which is somehting you cannot claim yourself.  To claim I have a bais is again countered by the fact I fly both sides.  Again you can't make the same claim.   From now I'm going to completely discount your comments until I start to see some actual sorties flown for the Axis on this server.  I doubt I will see any.  Talk about bias

You've flown mostly Allied, but you have more kills in Luftwaffe fighters than you do Allied ones  , unless you wanna count that most of your air to air kills have come from flying the Beaufighter *giggles*  . Anything you've flown that has .50 calibers you don't do well at all. You NEED cannons to be successful, which is readily apparent by your AARs. 

You are losing sight of the big picture as you are getting caught up in details of the comparison.  The 20mm is far more effective at killing than the .50cal.  End of story. 

Sorry again, but "Duh"...lol. Btw you're the one dragging this off topic and making weapon system comparisons rather than focusing on FM/DM issues, which have been confirmed in regards to the MG151/20 forcing aircraft into scripted uncounterable rolls, whereas Hispano 20mm do not  So whilst the Hispano 20mm has a slightly better cartridge power, and slightly better damage effects (look at the numbers I posted)...they don't cause violations to physics or have an unfair advantage when tied to the damage model as Hades posted about at the UP Team forums. 

In terms of strategy if someone wants to take a pot shot at you at a 1000 meters in the hopes to get a round on target then so be it.  It just so happens some Axis planes have a lot of ammo.  Remember they pay for it in terms of weight and manuevering performance.  That isn't wrong or unrealistic in any shape or form. That goes for both sides.  I've shot at people with .50s and gotten PKs at a 1000m.   Your attempt to make it about someone being a better stick than one who doesn't take pot shots falls short.  It smells of some sort of I'm better than you because I fly X.   Who cares dude?      

  You're the one that keeps bringing it up, being personal about how or what a single player feels...about the satisfaction a single player gets about bringing down enemy aircraft by using weapon systems that require a higher level of skill to put weapons on target  .

Thanks for proving my point.  The Hispanos hit harder than the MG151 and it only takes 3 rounds to bring down a fighter.  Should the Axis cry that there is unblance?  Ummm no.  That would be a waste of time. 

Resorting to name calling even putting the JK afterwards is silly KV or Moccasin or what ever your name is today.

Ok, do Hispano 20mms cause FW-190s, ME-109s, ME-110s, JU-88s, HE-111s, JU-87s etc etc etc, to go into scripted damage model maneuvers?  Hehe, and it takes them 1 whole less shell on average to bring down an aircraft...that's one helluva point you made there Stubing lol, let's give this man an award for logical accuracy!  Sorry for the CaptObvious thing, but you WERE being pretty transparent lol.

I think I must be striking a cord with you on this one.  Your comments seem to be coming from something else other than a discussion about Planes Flipping.  You sprinkle in comments such as Axis Pilots are taking advantage and are weaker sticks than their Allied Counterparts because they can spray and prey (both sides do it all the time) and that they flop around taking advantage of the weak FMs because they don't know BFM.  Again both sides do it all the time.  You would actually know that had you flown the Axis side on this server.

No brother, no cord being struck even if you were strumming a 50 foot harp lol  , the off topic emotional comments have been coming from your camp, and I've just been amused and confused on why you keep doing it  . Regardless of which sides did such things,they can't anymore cause now they lose wings etc, which is excellent!

I think this is more of an exception and not the rule.  I don't have any problems killing anything the Axis flys with any of the planes in the set.  If you think this is going to vastly change the stats I think you will be very disappointed. Axis planes go down.  Sure some crash land but that also happens with Allied planes.  Very few people try to ditch.  Most try to bail.

Well, your AARs/debriefings don't suggest that. You're only successful in downing enemy aircraft when using a mount that is equipped with cannons, if it's got Browning M2 .50s then you've been a bit ass out when it comes to success. Also, Luftwaffe pilots try to ditch more than bailout so they can manipulate the system and deny their opponent a victory. This will stop though upon the next release when an aircraft that is forced down is actually recorded as a kill, and not a probable. ME-109 pilots are the worst with this because there is a bug with their crash/damage damage model that allows their pilot to survive under insane crash or damage parameters. I've blown ME-109s in half 200 feet off the deck, had both halves hit the deck and the pilot survives lol. This has been confirmed as a  problem by the UP Team...HSFX doesn't have this problem.

 

Complete nonsense.... On average I shoot well into the teens with 20mms that goes for MG151s and Hispanos.  On average I shoot about 5-8 percent with .50cals.   That has to do with the amount of rounds and if I'm hitting them. I liken the .50s to be more of a spray and very high rates of fire.  That goes for 303s as well.   Shooting nose mounted weapons like the 109s  is much easier than shooting wing mounted weapons IMO.  It gets rid of convergence problems.  The FW on the other hand only needs a small burst to destroy a fighter time depending.  I don't hold down the trigger so I use much less ammo unlike the .50s. 

So to say  the Axis is rewarded with poor gunnery is pure speculation on your part and far from the truth.  It's obvious this an attempt to make you feel better about your flying skills and being able to down Axis planes only with .50s.  Whatever the reason it doesn't really matter as it adds nothing to this discussion.

Yep goes for both sides BTW.  Oh and thanks for confirming my point about 51s 47s P-39s and P40s. 

It doesn't matter how well you shoot it would seem because you're not nearly as successful with 6 shooting American planes as you are with the cannon equipped aircraft you rely on for victories. The fact that Axis OR Allied cannon equipped aircraft are rewarded with poor gunnery is easily seen in the stats pages...look at the top scoring pilots and their shooting percentages  But yes indeed, I take a great deal of satisfaction in being successful in the aircraft I use  .

As for the planes you mentioned, the point wasn't yours to make, it's just general knowledge where their advantages/disadvantages are.

If you like why don't you take this to PM instead of playing to an audience and we can joust all you like, it's detracting from the original topic which is primarily wrapped around FM/DM issues in the game...and which ones are being addressed and which ones are not.

[iLOVEwindmills]

If you like why don't you take this to PM instead of playing to an audience and we can joust all you like, it's detracting from the original topic which is primarily wrapped around FM/DM issues in the game...and which ones are being addressed and which ones are not.

Please don't, I'm thoroughly enjoying this argument inevitably leading into "Cannon armed planes require as much gunnery skill as MG armed planes".

[CIA_Luth]

did someone say kool-aid?

i like kool-aid.

[CaptStubing]

You've flown mostly Allied, but you have more kills in Luftwaffe fighters than you do Allied ones  , unless you wanna count that most of your air to air kills have come from flying the Beaufighter *giggles*  . Anything you've flown that has .50 calibers you don't do well at all. You NEED cannons to be successful, which is readily apparent by your AARs. 

First time you've read my stats?  Also you don't seem to know how to figure out how many Sorties I've flown a .50cal platform this month.  Not many.   I always switch up rides and as of late I've been flying other things since the change on the server.  But gain I fly both sides.  You have zip for Axis sorties.   I don't have fly cannoned planes to be succesful as you have stated.  I have been one of the top pilots flying the 51 many times and there is no need to prove it to you.  This doesn't have anything to do a personal stats other than prove that you have zero credibility to your claims in this thread.   

Ok, do Hispano 20mms cause FW-190s, ME-109s, ME-110s, JU-88s, HE-111s, JU-87s etc etc etc, to go into scripted damage model maneuvers?  Hehe, and it takes them 1 whole less shell on average to bring down an aircraft...that's one helluva point you made there Stubing lol, let's give this man an award for logical accuracy!  Sorry for the CaptObvious thing, but you WERE being pretty transparent lol.

As far as your sarcasim goes you have missed the point.  Who actually has the advantage?  The gun that can flip or the one that can disable you in one less round?  Seems like splitting hairs at this point.

Actually the Hispanos do flip as I and others have experience first hand.  The testing that you have seen is far from complete.   I have been shot by a Tempest while flying FWs many times and have been flipped.  Sorry I'm not making it up.  In fairness with the tests to date it could be far less than the MG151s but I can assure you it does happen.

As I said before I don't give you much credit to your Statments about Axis aicraft given your lack of experience with them.  If the UP folks decide to take them out so be it.  I've stated earlier in the thread I could care less if they remove the flipping.  I think what they should do is enhance it to be more realistic especially to larger airplanes.  I'm sure getting hit with a half dozen explosive 20mms will cause you to move something if not remove what ever was hit.

[BEGINNER]

Either you're almost guaranteed to lose something major, or your plane starts snap rolling.  Losing parts doesn't bother me as much as the rolling part.  I've had B-25 instantly flip upside down, IL-2s go any number of ways, some planes i've had almost complete 2 rolls.  I've seen lots of gun film and heard many pilot accounts, but never have i ever seen planes get flipped around like this from cannon burst.  If you have, please post a link.

hmmm. its truth. happens to all most used aircrafts. in 4.11.1 is still this bug? i dont remember that i saw such a guncamera movie , with this kind of behauvior. teoreticaly is possible, when bullets are not possible to fly throught the wing. then energy stays in the wing.